Movement of the Lost Ten Tribes
|Contents by Subject||
Contents in Alphabetical Order
Shalom and hag someyakh [Happy Feastday, i.e. Chanuljah] Yair,
Thank you for putting me on the mailing list.
Please allow me to ask you a question.
In your various publications you overwhelmingly cite Tanakh [Scripture].
Have you considered the possibility that the location of the "lost tribes" was also something considered by the Ha"zal [Rabbinicial Sages]? There is nothing on your website, and I don't recollect seeing anything in The Tribes book that I own which suggests this possibility.
I think you may have overlooked some of our notices.
In "The Tribes" we refer to the Sages and their opinion a few times.
In our book "Ephraim" we go into what the Sages said at some depth.
On our web-site there are quite a few articles quoting Rabbinical Sources.
Characteristics of the Tribes According to Rabbinical Sources (4 articles)
Ten Lost Tribes and Biblical Philosophy
Kook, Rabbi Avraham Isaac: The Yearning of Ephraim For Redemption
The Divine Purpose for the Exile and Division of the Tribes
See also our Biblical Commentaries to the Bible Books e.g. Obadiah and Ezekiel 37.
Our articles on Messiah son of Joseph.
Nachmanides on the Truth of the Exile.
In effect much of what we publish is heavily permeated by Rabbinical Opinion.
If anything we may even have been overdoing it.
Hodesh tov v'hag someyach Yair,
It seems to me you misunderstood me.
Ha"zal means hakhamenu zikhronam li-verakhah [i.e. Our Wise men may their memory be blessed], i.e. the hahamim [wise men i.e. Sages] of the Talmud. I don't have The Tribes to hand right now, and do not own Ephraim, but there is a dearth of support for what you say on your site from the Talmudic (or Midrashic) sources.
Although your site is quite poorly organised, and therefore difficult to navigate, I did look and found only one reference to Talmud on the pages you suggested, but how it offered support other than its use as a footnote is unlcear.
It is my premise that the Ha"zal were just as concerned with the kibbutz galuyot [Ingathering of the Exiles], so much so that it is the 10th berakha [blessing] in the Shemoneh Esre [Eighteen Blessings included in the Prayer said by religious Jews three times a day] which is obligatory tefillah [prayer] on men and women until the restoration of the Temple. One would think that there would be a considerable amount of discussion on the subject, and that you would use it to substantiate your hypothesis of Europeans = 'lost tribes'. However, as I said earlier, this is not evidenced.
If you would not mind providing specific examples of where you do link support from Ha"zal [the Sages] for your various proposals, I would like to be able to evaluate them myself. There is no hurry, so if you choose to forward them, I'm happy to wait.
Shalom u'vraha [Shalom and Blessing]
Our site may well be poorly organized. If you or any one else have any suggestions as to how it may be improved we would be happy to consider them.
We have two search engines dedicated to our site that are displayed prominently and both of which are highly effective.
We have a listing of most of our ca. 1000 articles in alphabetical order
and another listing according to Subject Headings.
Brit-Am Evidence relies on Biblical Evidence strongly supplemented by Secular Fields of study in history and related fields.
Our Biblical Studies concentrate on the plain straightforward meaning of the Hebrew Verses as we understand them. Our understandings are usually CONFIRMED by Classicial Rabbinicial Commentaries such as Targum Yehonatan, Rashi, Radak, Nachmanides, Iben Ezra, Malbim, S.R. Hirsch, etc.
On specific points we have translated, analyzed, and commented upon the opinions of Sages such as S.R. Hirsch, Nachmanides, Rabbi Kook, and others.
We also refer to Talmudic opinion and Midrashim but not to a great deal since there is not that much available.
The 10th berakha [blessing] in the Shemoneh Esreh speaks of the Ingathering of the Exiles. A later commentary [Etz Chayim? - may have seen it once but unfortunately have forgotten the source and did not make a note at the time] says that part of this blessing refers to the Ten Tribes. As far as I know the Talmud however does not make such an explicit statement though it may well have been part of their intention.
The emphasis throughout the Talmud is on practical matters on a day-to-day basis. Very little space is given to prophecy, the Messianic Age, or the World to Come. The Ten Tribers are seldom mentioned. Judaism in general stresses the here and now and what one must do in this world to fulfill the duty that each person has.
In the past I learnt the sources in various programs and on my own. This learning helped greatly in my research and in other ways.
In addition to all this, I have been participating in a Daf Yomi [Page of Talmud a Day] program for more than ten years and otherwise have been learning beyond that. I have therefore heard and read (albeit on a very superficial level) the Talmud right the way through at least once and many sections of it more than once. This learning has been mostly at beginners level but some of it has been relatively thorough. I AM NOT AN EXPERT AND NEVER CLAIMED TO BE! I do however have some acquaintanceship with the subject matter.
The Talmud says that the Lost Ten Tribes were exiled. It also says emphatically that they will return. It does not say where they are. It does say that they were exiled to beyond the River Sambation and to other areas. We have at least 42 entries on the Sambation alone.
The Talmud mentions as places of Exile, Daphenh of Antiochia, the Mountains of Darkness, the Mountains of Snow, and Afrikey. We have entries on all of these.
Another point that has just come to light (in our very own Brit-Am Now pages!) is that the Sages linked the Lost Ten Tribes with the Children of Rechab and these were considered to be in the Islands of Britain and Ireland!
Aed and Israel
The Lost Tribes in Celtic and Arabic Lore
There is a Midrash concerning the physical appearance of Joseph which is also pertinent.
In other words Brit-Am has an impressive body of evidence built on the Hebrew Bible consistent with Midrashim and Talmudic references along with the Commentaries of Rabbinicial Authorities and their opinions in addition to much secular evidence.
It is not our task to prove the cases based ONLY on Talmudic opinions but rather, if anything, merely to be consistent with them. If you believe that Brit-Am beliefs are not consistent with Talmudic opinion then you are the one who needs to bring evidence.
Despite the above, we may well shortly prepare an article summarizing all the Talmudic, Midrashic, and related evidence that does exist.
While looking over your site and in particular the references to British Christian Zionism I noted that you did not reference the influence of John Nelson Darby. Can you tell me why you felt he was not important to your history of Christian Zionism?
British Christian Zionism was admittedly an important movement in its own right and tells us much about Ephraim in general.
We have a whole book on our site dedicated in part to this subject:
Franz Kobler, "The Vision Was There", London, 1956.
This book is well written and well researched.
Originally published by the the World Jewish Congress it is now out of print.
For many it may well be that the Brit-Am site is the only venue from which this work may be obtained and it is available for free!
We therefore cannot be suspected of trying to avoid the issue.
On the other hand I personally do not know that much about it.
It involves aspects of Christian Theology and therefore should be dealt with by those to whom these issues mean something.
As for John Nelson Darby I never heard of him or if I did never paid him sufficient attention.
A glance at the Wikipedia article about him shows that he had an influence on the Plymouth Brethren Movement.
My grandmother (mother of my father) came from a family that belonged to this movement so maybe they once knew him?
Wikipedia Article Extracts
John Nelson Darby
# John Nelson Darby (18 November 1800 ? 29 April 1882) was an Anglo-Irish evangelist, and an influential figure among the original Plymouth Brethren. He is considered to be the father of modern Dispensationalism. He produced a translation of the Bible based on the Hebrew and Greek texts called The Holy Scriptures: A New Translation from the Original Languages by J. N. Darby.
# Darby is noted in the theological world as the father of "dispensationalism," later made popular in the United States by Cyrus Scofield's Scofield Reference Bible. Charles Henry Mackintosh, 1820-1896, with his popular style spread Darby's teachings to humbler elements in society and may be regarded as the journalist of the Brethren Movement. CHM popularised Darby more than any other Brethren author. Darby is sometimes credited with originating, the "secret rapture" theory ... Dispensationalist beliefs about the fate of the Jews and the re-establishment of the Kingdom of Israel put dispensationalists at the forefront of Christian Zionism, because "God is able to graft them in again," and they believe that in His grace he will do so according to their understanding of Old Testament prophecy. They believe that, while the ways of God may change, His purposes to bless Israel will never be forgotten, just as He has shown unmerited favour to the Church, He will do so to a remnant of Israel to fulfill all the promises made to the genetic seed of Abraham.
Thank you for your very kind response and thank you for providing the link to the Kobler book. I have read it.
I have been doing extensive research about Christian Zionism and recognize much of the material in the Kobler book already. However, as you noted, John Nelson Darby is not mentioned. That is a serious omission. Darby is largely responsible for the development of Dispensationalist Protestantism and the rejection of Replacement Theology. Essentially it is the Protestant negation of Catholic theology that the Jews are accursed of God and that the Church has replaced the Jews as the chosen of God. Many believe that replacement theology was and is and remains the basis of anti-Semitic theology today.
Darby was very influential in the British/American development of proto-Zionism and the reason for much of fundamentalist support for Israel today. Kobler's not addressing Darby is a major, strange, failure of the book.
...Using information, such as Kobler references as you know, raises the hackles on contemporary historical writing - not politically correct.
Thank you again.
Kobler prepared much of his work during WW2 and polished it over in the period following. He wrote it at first in his native German and then translated it himself (?) into English. He hoped that the book would influence the British to reconsider their opposition to Zionism. He believed that Restorationism (i.e. Gentile British Christian support for Zionism) was an integral aspect of the British National soul. The book therefore concentrates on the British scene. At that time American involvement with Israel was not as predominant as it later became. American Evangelistic and Fundamentalist support for Zionism had not yet reached the heights it has now achieved.
John Nelson Darby is today considered important mainly because retroactively the influence his work had on the American scene may be better appreciated.
Kobler was not in a position to know this.
This may explain why Kobler does not relate to Darby as we now see he should have done.
Franz Kobler was born in Mlada Boleslav in Bohemia, in the then Austro-Hungarian Empire (now Czech Republic) on December 18, 1882.
He was the son of Josef Kobler, a Jewish farmer and businessman, and Katherina Baer.
In March 1938, following the Anschluss of Austria by Nazi Germany, Franz Kobler and his son were arrested. Franz Kobler was released three months later. Along with his wife, Kobler fled to Zurich before emigrating to London. They remained there until 1947, when Franz and Dora Kobler joined their son in San Francisco.
It was during Franz Kobler's stay in England that he began his research into the British movement for the restoration of Israel to the Jews. The result of this research was his book The Vision Was There, published in 1956. ...After the death of Dora Kobler in 1960, Franz Kobler moved to Berkeley, California. It was there that he worked on Napoleon and the Jews. He remained in Berkeley until his own death in 1965.
Pleased with what you read?