Date: Sun Aug 11, 2002 9:28 am
Questions 1 & 2:
At 13:37 10/08/2002 +0100, James Templeton wrote:
I have a problem and would be grateful
if can you explain the meaning of
this statement: And Edom is in 'Modern Jewry' Jewish Encyclopaedia, 1925
edition, Vol. 5, p. 41. I have checked this and it is genuine. How could
this encyclopaedia possible contain this statement, Edom is Jewry? Did the
compilers believe the Khazars were Edom? If you do not want to post the
reply to lost tribes, will you please send me a personal reply? I did not
previously accept your teaching that the Khazars are tribes of Israel, but
further research seems to indicate that you may be correct, because the
basis for this teaching is the same as that of Identity, that the lost
tribes gathered in Asareth and the Caucasian range. However like all
Israelites the Khazars also attracted Edomites to worship with them which
would also be a natural response. It would be impossible to tell the
difference between Israel and Edom other than Hittite featured prevalent in
Edom. Your friend, James Templeton
Answers 1& 2 (from Yair Davidiy
and Steven Collins (points 4,5,6,7in the
section "Why the Jews are Judah", see below) :
Reply (from Yair Davidiy): You asked
in effect two questions: 1. About
Edom and the Jews in general
2. About Edom and the Khazars. The second question we have discussed in the
So for a brief recap:
The idea about the Khazars says that most Jews come from the Khazars who
were Turks who were Edomites
and therefore most Jews (they want to say) must be Edomites! IN answer:
Most Jews are not descended from the Khazars.
The Khazars were descended from the Lost Ten Tribes.
The Khazars were not Turks.
The Turks are not Edomites.
Now for Question no.1:
Answer: Some descendants of Edom maybe amongst Judah but it is not certain.
Even so Judah is Judah in the Bible. Descendants of Edom are also to be
found amongst people of British origin who nevertheless appear to be
identified in Scripture with the Lost Ten Tribes of Israel headed by
Joseph. Edom dominated some European nations such as Germany even though
people of Israelite descent were also to be found in these nations..
The 1925 Jewish Encyclopedia is probably
relying on the report by Josephus
that inhabitants of Edom were forcibly converted to Judaism:
JOSEPHUS: Antiquities of the Jews: Book
XIII, Chapter IX, Item 1:
Hyrcanus took also Dora and Marissa, cities of Idumea, and subdued all the
Idumeans; and permitted them to stay in that country, if they would
circumcise their genitals, and make use of the laws of the Jews; and they
were so desirous of living in the country of their forefathers, that they
submitted to the use of circumcision, ad of the rest of the Jewish ways of
living; at which time therefore this befell them, that they were hereafter
no other than Jews.
Edom was a small country to the south
of Judah whose inhabitants were
either forced to convert to Judaism as Josephus says or they were all given
the status of Canaanite slaves as “Daat Sofrim” understands the sources to
imply: This would mean that they had to be circumcised and keep all
negative commandments but did not have to keep positive commandments and in
sexual matters were relatively free.
Abarbanel understands the traditions
he had received as saying that most of
the early Christians from Judah were in fact Edomites.
At all events Edom was small country
and we are not talking about a great
number of people.
The possibility that part of Edom would (even if only temporarily) be
reconciled to the truth and accepted into Israel was foreseen by Scripture:
[Deuteronomy 23:7] THOU SHALT NOT ABHOR AN EDOMITE; FOR HE IS THY BROTHER:
THOU SHALT NOT ABHOR AN EGYPTIAN; BECAUSE THOU WAST A STRANGER IN HIS LAND.
[Deuteronomy 23:8] THE CHILDREN THAT ARE BEGOTTEN OF THEM SHALL ENTER INTO
THE CONGREGATION OF THE LORD IN THEIR THIRD GENERATION.
Edom was split up into several nations
and ruling elements amongst other
peoples. Most of Edom was in the north.
Some Biblical sources concerning Edom:
Edom was descended from Esau who had
been blessed by Jacob:
[Genesis 27:38] AND ESAU SAID UNTO HIS FATHER, HAST THOU BUT ONE BLESSING,
MY FATHER? BLESS ME, EVEN ME ALSO, O MY FATHER. AND ESAU LIFTED UP HIS
VOICE, AND WEPT.
[Genesis 27:39] AND ISAAC HIS FATHER
ANSWERED AND SAID UNTO HIM, BEHOLD,
THY DWELLING SHALL BE THE FATNESS OF THE EARTH, AND OF THE DEW OF HEAVEN
Esau is here promised a fertile place to dwell in. The Talmud says
that at one stage this was “Italy of Greece” (i.e. “Magna Grecia”) or
Southern Italy which was once very fertile. From there the sons of Esau
moved on. They dominated Rome and became the ruling elite of Germany. Some
Christian commentaries say the verse should be read: <<THY DWELLING SHALL
BE [far away from] THE FATNESS OF THE EARTH>>: I do not know the source of
this explanation and it does not fit the Hebrew as I understand it. It
appears in some translations and is accepted by several Christian exegetes.
It may be that the land southeast of Israel that is known as Edom is not
regarded as being terribly fertile, and the translators were trying to
rationalize their translation and adapt the translated meaning according to
their own understanding of reality. Against this it can be said that the
Land of Edom was once much more fertile than it now is. Also the people of
Esau did not only dwell in the southern Land of Edom but were scattered to
several areas. There was also a region belonging to Edom in the north. A
passage in an inscription from the ancient city of Ugarit on the North
Syrian coast speaks of “the well-watered land of Edom”. The impression is
that Edomites were prominent in the hierarchies of Babylon, Ugarit,
Assyria, and Phoenician Tyre. Later they were prominent amongst the Latin
and Germanic peoples. Descendants of Edom have received great material
blessings. They have been dominant amongst the ruling classes of relatively
[Genesis 27:40] AND BY THY SWORD SHALT
THOU LIVE, AND SHALT SERVE THY
BROTHER; AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS WHEN THOU SHALT HAVE THE DOMINION, THAT
THOU SHALT BREAK HIS YOKE FROM OFF THY NECK.
<<BY THY SWORD SHALT THOU LIVE, AND SHALT SERVE THY BROTHER>>: Esau was a
military man. The Talmud (Gittin 57;a) says that every war requires the
presence of Esau in order to achieve victory.
<<WHEN THOU SHALT SHALT HAVE THE DOMINION, THAT THOU SHALT BREAK HIS YOKE
FROM OFF THY NECK>>: Onkelos translates this to say that, when Jacob sins
then Esau will assert his independence, or even acquire domination over at
least part of Jacob.
<<ESAU HATED JACOB BECAUSE OF
THE BLESSING WHEREWITH HIS FATHER BLESSED
HIM>>: Esau was the first anti-Semite. He cannot help hating Jacob. This
explains the anti-Semites in the Identity movement and Replacement
Theology. Replacement Theology says that Israel (meaning in their terms the
Jews) were originally the Chosen People but now the Christians have
replaced them. Some anti-Jewish Identity freaks say that the Jews are not
true Israelites but rather they themselves are. In both cases you have
examples of transference. These people with their anti-Jewish opinions
express the jealousy of Esau trying to regain the rights of
[Genesis 28:9] THEN WENT ESAU UNTO ISHMAEL,
AND TOOK UNTO THE WIVES WHICH
HE HAD MAHALATH THE DAUGHTER OF ISHMAEL ABRAHAM'S SON, THE SISTER OF
NEBAJOTH, TO BE HIS WIFE.
He took a daughter of Ishmael in addition to his other wives, not
instead of them. This coupling is said to hint at a future union between
Ishmael (Arabs & Islam) and Esau (Europe & conventional Christianity)
versus Israel and Judah.
[Genesis 33:10] AND JACOB SAID, NAY,
I PRAY THEE, IF NOW I HAVE FOUND GRACE
IN THY SIGHT, THEN RECEIVE MY PRESENT AT MY HAND: FOR THEREFORE I HAVE SEEN
THY FACE, AS THOUGH I HAD SEEN THE FACE OF GOD, AND THOU WAST PLEASED WITH
The Rabbis interpreted this to mean that, Jacob was indicating to
Esau that he had met the guardian angel of Esau, (<<AS THOUGH I HAD SEEN
THE FACE OF GOD>>), face-to-face, and obtained his sanction. The guardian
angel represents the “genius” or inner soul of the nation.
[Genesis 33:14] LET MY LORD, I PRAY
THEE, PASS OVER BEFORE HIS SERVANT:
AND I WILL LEAD ON SOFTLY, ACCORDING AS THE CATTLE THAT GOETH BEFORE ME AND
THE CHILDREN BE ABLE TO ENDURE, UNTIL I COME UNTO MY LORD UNTO SEIR.
Rashi quotes the sages (cf. Yerushalmi, Avodah Zara, ch.2, h.1) as
saying: We have gone through the entire Bible and not found that Jacob
fulfilled his promise: UNTIL I COME UNTO MY LORD UNTO SEIR. When will he
fulfill it and go to Esau? When the following verse is fulfilled: “AND
SAVIOURS SHALL COME UP ON MOUNT ZION TO JUDGE THE MOUNT OF ESAU; AND THE
KINGDOM SHALL BE THE LORD’S” [OBADIAH 1:21]. See also Isaiah 63 and our
Edom in History:
Esau was worshipped by some of the Celtic peoples under the name Essuvus.
The people of the region of what later became Normandy considered him to be
Edom Amongst The Celts
The Lost Tribes were to become the dominant
element in Celtic
civilization in Western Europe. Together with the Hebrews other elements
however were also present. Esau under the name Esus or Essuvos was
worshipped by many of the Celts (at least in Gaul and Germany) as part of a
“Known from the Roman writer Lucan in
the first century AD and two
inscriptions near Paris and Trier. Lucan said that human sacrifices were
made to him. In the ninth century Switzerland Esus was equated with Mars
and Mercury… He was the eponymous god of the tribes Essuvi [in Normandy]
…plus the town of Essedunum and the modern German city of Essen. However,
that his sacrificial victims were hung from trees and ritually wounded
identifies him with the Norse's heavenly god Odin… The first century Roman
writer Lucan commented that he was the Celtic supreme god…In Irish myth he
appears as Esias, a sorcerer god…”
There was a tradition that people from
Esau had once settled in Britain:
"Britannia Antiqua Illustrata:
or, The Antiquities of Ancient Britain", by Aylett Sammes, 1676,
Herman L. Hoeh, COMPENDIUM OF WORLD HISTORY, VOLUME
1, 1962 (1963-1965, 1967 Edition)
A new, but related, people invade British
Isles during days of
Silvius (681-632) and Jaso (632-604); see Sammes' "Antiquities of
Ancient Britain", p. 170; these were first wave of children of
Jacob (Esau's brother) who were uprooted by Assyrians
Another wave of same people who invaded
in days of Silvius and
Jaso now peroclate into Britain: civil war results; old line of
kings overthrown and perish in 482: civil war ends in 434 with
new line of kings
The name Woden or Odin may also be derived
from the name
“Edom”. The ancient native Germans called their god "Koz" and identified
him with Woden. Josephus (Antiquities xv.7,9) asserts and archaeological
inscriptions confirm that the national god of the small state of Edom to
the south and east of Judah was called "Kiazo" or "Koz" (or Cas)*b also
rendered as "Qa-us". Esau (under the name of “Koz”) was therefore the
supreme god of many in Germany.
The possibility exists that elements
from Edom are to be found amongst both
the Jews of Judah and Joseph. In the West.
Even so Judah is Judah in the Bible.
Descendants of Edom are also to be found amongst people of British origin
who nevertheless appear to be identified in Scripture with the Lost Ten
Tribes of Israel headed by Joseph.
Why the Jews are Judah:
1. The Jews were persecuted by the Gentiles as it had been prophesied Judah
Zechariah 1:15, Zechariah 8;13, Isaiah ch.53, Isaiah 42; 10, Psalm 44; 22
2. The Jews kept the Law as it had been
prophesied that Judah would: Psalms
60; 9, 108; 90
Genesis 49; 10, Zechariah 8; 23
3. The Jews keep the four fasts of mourning
(as prophesied by Zechariah
THE FAST OF THE FOURTH MONTH, -17th Tammuz
THE FAST OF THE FIFTH, - 9th of Av
AND THE FAST OF THE SEVENTH, - 3rd of Tishrei (Gedaliah)
AND THE FAST OF THE TENTH, - 10th Tebeth (Tevet).
As Steven Collins points out in the
following points 4,5,6,7) in the Last
4. Zephaniah (2:1-7): The jews will come back to the Land and founding a
State initially on the coast line of “Palestine”.
5. Zechariah 14:14: Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem
6. Genesis 49: Judah will be like an old lion in the last days and like a
yound whelp which fits the present State of Israel with its ancient people
springing forth to defend themselves like a lion.
7. In the Last Days Judah will merit agricultural plenty:
[Genesis 49:8] JUDAH, THOU ART HE WHOM THY BRETHREN SHALL PRAISE: THY HAND
SHALL BE IN THE NECK OF THINE ENEMIES; THY FATHER'S CHILDREN SHALL BOW DOWN
[Genesis 49:9] JUDAH IS A LION'S WHELP:
FROM THE PREY, MY SON, THOU ART
GONE UP: HE STOOPED DOWN, HE COUCHED AS A LION, AND AS AN OLD LION; WHO
SHALL ROUSE HIM UP?
[Genesis 49:10] THE SCEPTRE SHALL NOT
DEPART FROM JUDAH, NOR A LAWGIVER
FROM BETWEEN HIS FEET, UNTIL SHILOH COME; AND UNTO HIM SHALL THE GATHERING
OF THE PEOPLE BE.
[Genesis 49:11] BINDING HIS FOAL UNTO
THE VINE, AND HIS ASS'S COLT UNTO THE
CHOICE VINE; HE WASHED HIS GARMENTS IN WINE, AND HIS CLOTHES IN THE BLOOD
[Genesis 49:12] HIS EYES SHALL BE RED
WITH WINE, AND HIS TEETH WHITE WITH
Additional reasons by Steven M. Collins:
FULFILLMENT OF ZEPHANIAH'S PROPHECY
Zephaniah (2:1-7) speaks about the jews coming back to the Land and
founding the State of Israel initially on the coast line of “Palestine” as
the Jews have done. Also Zechariah ch.14 especially 14:14 "Judah also shall
fight at Jerusalem." Cf.
FULFILLMENT OF ZECHARIAH'S PROPHECY
Zechariah 12:2 God "will make Jerusalem
a cup of trembling to all the
people round about, when they shall be in the siege against Judah and
Jerusalem." This parallels Zechariah 14 which speaks of a time when "all
nations are gathered against Jerusalem." Notice that many nations are
besieging "Judah and Jerusalem." The Bible presents "Judah and Jerusalem"
as so closely linked with each other in the latter days that they are
mentioned together. This has happened as the Israelis have made Jerusalem
the capital of the Jewish state, and Jerusalem has become a "cup of
trembling" (a major flashpoint) in world politics. Verse six prophesies
that God will make:
"...the governors of Judah like a hearth of fire among the wood...and they
shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left:
and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem."
God prophesies that "Judah" would be a militarily victorious nation in the
Mideast (the geographic setting of this entire chapter is the region around
Jerusalem) during the latter days. This prophecy also indicates that Judah
will "devour" the people who border them ("devour" indicates not just
conquering people but an absorbing of their territory as well). This has
been dramatically fulfilled by the Israelis in the Arab-Israeli wars of
1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973; the Israelis conquered ("devoured") territory
all around them, taking control of the Egyptian Sinai, Syria's Golan
Heights, the Gaza Strip and Jordan's West Bank. Some of this territory has
been bartered away as part of the "Mideast Peace Process," but the prophecy
was fulfilled nonetheless.
REASON 3: FULFILLMENT OF GENESIS 49'S
"Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in
the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee.
Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he
stooped down, he couched as a lion; and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?
The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his
feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he
washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes: his
eyes shall be red with wine and his teeth white with milk."
This prophecy reveals much information about modern Judah. To begin with,
there is a seeming paradox in this prophecy: Judah is referred to as both a
"lion's whelp" and "as an old lion." However, this actually fits the modern
Jews/Israelis very well. The term "lion's whelp" (a young cub) predicts
Judah will be a young (or recently-born) nation in the latter days: a
fitting description of the young Israeli nation which was founded in 1948.
This prophecy is very consistent with Zephaniah 2, which prophesied Judah
would found a nation in Palestine just prior to "the day of the Lord." Yet,
the Jews are also a people with a continuous history traceable for over
three millennia, and they also had a nation in Palestine in ancient times
(i.e. "as an old lion"). The Jews/Israelis fulfill this prophecy as they
are a very young nation which was founded by a people with an ancient
tradition and heritage.
Genesis 49:8-9 states Judah's "hand shall be in the neck of thy enemies,"
and refers to Judah "as a lion going up from the prey." This prophecy
foretells that Judah will be an aggressive nation and victorious in warfare
during the latter days, conquering its enemies like a lion brings down its
prey. This has been amply fulfilled by Israeli victories in its wars, and
this prophecy meshes perfectly with Zechariah 12:6's prophecy which states
Judah would "devour" her enemies in the latter days. Not only have the
Israelis been successful in warfare, they have leaped out at their enemies
even as a lion leaps and stretches out toward its intended prey. The
Israelis do not "run and hide" like a prey animal; they attack like a
predator. They leaped out to attack their enemies in the 1976 raid on
Entebbe, Uganda, and in their destruction of an Iraqi nuclear reactor in
1981 via a bold air strike.
1. Surprisingly, after predicting military prowess for Judah, Genesis
49 next prophesies agricultural success for latter-day Judah. Notice the
agricultural words printed in bold type in the above prophecy. Verses 11-12
predict Judah's agricultural success in the latter days, and the Israelis
have truly "made the desert bloom" by applying advanced Western technology
in an inherently dry climate. Confirming this fact, the Encyclopedia
Americana [Vol. 15, p. 524]
notes that "of the goods exported [by Israel] in the mid-1980's about
one-third were agricultural” Genesis 49:11-12 parallels Zephaniah 2:6's
prophecy, further illustrating the consistency of the Bible's prophecies
about Judah in the latter days.
Genesis 49:1 also prophesies: "Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall
praise." This has been fulfilled in the fact that modern Christendom widely
regards the Jews as "the chosen people." Ironically, many of the Christians
who regard the Jews as "the chosen people" are themselves Israelites
(members of the ten tribes of Israel). Indeed, Christians have labelled the
Jews as "the chosen people" even though the Jews have clearly inherited
none of the birthright blessings promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob! It
is the descendants of Ephraim and Manasseh (the British and Americans) who
inherited the birthright promises of population growth, national wealth,
empires, and control of strategic geographical "gates." Why have the other
tribes acknowledged Judah's Israelite heritage even though they have lost
sight of their own? Because the Jews have preserved identifiably biblical
customs such as the Sabbath, the holydays of Leviticus 23, and a diet
avoiding "unclean" meats such as pork and shellfish. If the descendants of
the ten tribes had also retained these biblical customs throughout history,
their Israelite heritage would never have become obscured.
It is further prophesied in Genesis 49:8 that: "thy father's children [the
other tribes of Israel] shall bow down to thee." This is explained in verse
10, which states:
"the scepter [a symbol of kings] shall not depart from Judah, nor a
lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come: and unto him shall the
gathering [hope, expectation] of the people be."
Beginning with the dynasty founded by Kings David and Solomon, there have
always been Israelites of the various tribes ruled by monarchs descended
from David and Solomon. The hereditary ruling houses of Europe can be
traced to Davidic kings who once ruled over Scythian kingdoms and the
widespread Parthian Empire of the ten tribes [in Asia] fulfills the
prophecy of Genesis 49:3 and 10. The ancestry of the kings of England can
be continuously traced to the ancient kings of Judah via the royal houses
of Ireland and Scotland, and the seed of David was spread throughout the
royal houses of Europe by frequent intermarriages among Europe's royalty.
Genesis 49:10 also prophesies that Judah will have kings ruling over the
other tribes of Israel "until Shiloh come." This is a Messianic prophecy
which predicts that David's bloodline will be present in the royal houses
of the Israelite nations until the coming of the Messiah. Even though
Europe's remaining royalty now have largely ceremonial roles, the prophecy
has still been fulfilled. And, finally, it is the coming of the Messiah
toward which the "hope" or "expectation" of both Christians and Jews is
We see that the modern Jews and Israelis have fulfilled Genesis 49's
prophecy about Judah in the latter days (in fact, no other people on earth
do so). All prophecies about Judah in the latter days point to and are
fulfilled by modern Jews/Israelis. Secular evidence supporting this
identification follows in the next section.
Further Comment by Brit-Am:
Some people may find the very fact that we found the need to address this
“question” about the “identity” of Judah offensive nevertheless,
In Proverbs it says:
“Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like him.
“Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own deceit”
In other words we do not have to reply to the claims of every misguided or
Even so, in some cases we should know enough to reply to them if
necessary. Sometimes these people can push their opinion quite forcefully
at an inopportune moment and it helps to have a ready answer.
We believe Joseph to be amongst the peoples of Britain and America and
their kin since all of the Biblical prophecies point in that direction and
also because what “secular” information we obtained on the subject helped
confirm our findings.