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The remark below indicates
that R1b1b2 (Now Prominent amongst Irish, British, and West Europeans)
originated in SW Asia meaning the region of Israel and its surroundings.
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 23:23:35 -0400
From: Vincent Vizachero
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b Origins (was OurEuropeangeographicalblock. . .)
I'm saying that the most upstream types of R1b1b2 are more frequent in
SW Asia than in NW Europe.
Frequency requires a numerator AND a denominator:. You provided only
the numerator, and I gave you the rest of the picture.
The source below brings a
series of facts showing that (1) populations change sometimes quickly even when
no major emigration-immigration has been recorded,
with up to 80% change over last 300 years.
(2) DNA changes. Ancient DNA in the British Isles, Iceland, Tuscany (Italy), Central Europe, Denmark, etc, is different from that of Modern Times. This may be due (as the author assumes) to demographic changes (one type becomes more predominant, another diminishes) or (as we think is also possible) changes in the DNA itself.
Also interesting in relation to this whole thread (mtDNA as a stand-in for Y-DNA, modern distribution reflecting ancient distribution, etc.): From Dieneke's blog at http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/07/
Part II of his discussion of a paper: UPDATE II (Jul 2) From the paper: Analyses of mtDNA diversity in the British Isles (T ?pf et al. 2007), and Iceland (Helgason et al. 2009), also showed sharp differences between historical and current populations. In addition, a large fraction (up to 80%, depending on the region considered) of the Dutch surnames were displaced from the areas in which their frequency was highest three centuries ago (Manni et al. 2005). Nobody can tell whether the Netherlands represent an exception or the rule, until similar studies are carried out elsewhere, and there is no comparable information on previous centuries. However, the point here is that a genetic discontinuity between present and past populations seems rather common in the few European countries studied so far. Deep demographic changes in the last two millennia are both suggested by the analysis of ancient DNA in Tuscany, Iceland and Britain, and empirically demonstrated in the Netherlands. Our failure to reproduce by simulation the observed haplotype number of the contemporary Tuscan samples may mean that such changes involved multiple immigration processes, too complex to model at present. The paper by T ?pf et al. in turn points to this study of ancient British mtDNA which I had forgotten about. That study shows an increase of haplogroup H (as most of the OTHER probably is) in modern times compared to the past, and the drastic reduction of some haplogroups as U5a1 and U5a1a. Other cases of apparent drastic change over time, involves the Central Europeans (reduced haplogroup N1a) compared to early Central European farmers., and medieval vs. modern Danes (reduced haplogroup I). So, the picture does seem to suggest substantial changes in mtDNA gene pools over time across many parts of Europe and time frames. Whether this reflects population movements or selection, remains to be seen. In the paper on the Netherlands, for examples (Manni et al.) cited in this paper shows that the original surnames in a region can be rapidly replaced over a genealogical time frame. Studies such as these put into question the widely held assumption that modern gene pools reflect prehistorical events, such as the repopulation of Europe after the glacial age, or the advent of farming. If genetic change is so substantial over 100 generations, we are rather foolish, I believe, to attempt prehistoric reconstructions about events that took place 300 or even 600 generations ago.
Thread: R1b Origins (was OurEuropeangeographicalblock. . .)
Specific Author: Lost source.
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